THE EVE & DEB DREAM--The Background of Division! DO 1790 6/84
1. THIS IS A DREAM I HAD, it must have been either during the night, or in the morning. I don't know what to call it except "The Mother Eve Dream"!
2. WE WERE VISITING IN THIS HOME with some friends who were putting us up for a few days, as they often did in the days we were on the road, & our Camper was parked in their yard. I was getting a little fed up with them because I didn't like them & it seemed to me they weren't really that friendly or sympathetic, at least not with me. That was kind of a usual pattern that was not unusual. They often liked Eve & the kids, but I was kind of a queer bird & they'd wonder what I was & what I was doing, & it seemed whenever I did say anything I seemed to have a few funny ideas. I was sort of a strange goony bird!
3. WELL, AS OFTEN HAPPENED, I GOT FED UP with the situation & I wanted to move on, but Eve & the kids didn't.--At least Eve didn't, & she often influenced the kids. So I finally got desperate & I said, "Well, I'm going on anyhow! If you guys want to stay, I'm just going to go without you!"
4. IT SEEMED LIKE EVE HAD HIDDEN THE KEYS to the Camper, so I was looking all over trying to find the keys. Then when I finally found them I had a hard time getting the Camper started. That was always sort of a trauma, wondering after being parked for days or weeks if we could get it started again! But I finally got it started. Then I discovered they had sort of fenced it in, the whole yard, not only fenced, but dug a big ditch, & it seemed I couldn't get out!--At least not with anything as big as the Camper!
5. SO I THOUGHT, "WELL, THEY'VE GOT ME HERE!"--SO I THOUGHT, "WELL, IF I CAN'T TAKE THE CAMPER, I'LL TAKE THE CAR!"--And the car was again our big old 9-passenger taxi, only it was like our old black 8-passenger Mercedes. It seemed like we were travelling with both of them like we often did, we often travelled with the Camper & the car, so we would have something to drive around in. And I said, "Well, I'm just going to take the car & get through this with the car!"--Through the narrow gate & over the bridge or whatever it was. So I started calling for Eve & the family sort of desperately, like this was their last chance if they were going to go with me!
6. IT WAS A TWO-STORY HOUSE, & I REMEMBER WALKING AROUND THE HOUSE CALLING OUT TO THE UPSTAIRS where they were, in some kind of a living room or dining room upstairs, & I was yelling at the top of my voice, "Eve! Eve! If you want to go with me, you'd better come!" I was met by silence! I thought, "Oh my! Am I going to have to leave my family behind?"--I guess I was calling so loud & so desperately I woke up!
7. RATHER SYMBOLIC, HUH? I SURE HAD TO LEAVE HER BEHIND, & SOME OF THE FAMILY TOO! These friends were obviously Systemites who didn't agree with our doctrines, or my doctrines at least! But they liked Eve & the kids. She was always rather System, you know, & it didn't bother her, she liked church & church people & Systemites, as long as they supported us & gave us money or a place to live & food to eat. She was a great sponger, but it came in handy sometimes. Some people called it faith & other people called it sponging. My Aunt Ellen called us "Gospel Beggars"!--Ha!
8. SO APPARENTLY THESE PEOPLE WE WERE VISITING WERE NOT VERY SYMPATHETIC WITH ME OR MY DOCTRINES, but were quite sympathetic with her & the kids, & it was like I was having to leave them behind. I really felt bad about it you know, like I had to really leave her & the family in order to get out of there. It was almost like a trap!--And in a way that's just what I did, in reality! She obviously was joined to the System. It reminds me of that Scripture, about "Leave Ephraim alone, he is joined to his idols!--He is a half-baked cake!" (Hos.4:17; 7:8) She was sort of half here & half there, you know, believed me about halfway, but was still enamoured with the System & churches & church people!
9. (MARIA: IT'S LIKE THEY WRITE IN & SAY, "WE BELIEVE IN THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE FAMILY OF LOVE! We read & agree with the Basic Letters, but not the new ones!") Can you imagine?--Just like "The Division Prophecy" said (see No.117A), just like a split, just like a denominational schism! Isn't that amazing? It's like they would try to form their own denomination based on the old wine!
10. THERE ARE SEVERAL DENOMINATIONS THAT WERE FORMED LIKE THAT, BY PEOPLE WHO STUCK TO THE OLD WAYS & the old-fashioned doctrines & wouldn't follow some new leader, so it was usually the new leader that split off! Because the Old Bottles were considered the old line, the original group, you know, the conservatives. The new group were usually considered the radicals, the rebels, the revolutionaries, the split-offs who parted from the original denomination, usually led by some rebel radical leader who split off from the original group. But we didn't split off from them, they split off from us! A little odd reversal in this case.
11. BUT I FELT A LITTLE BAD, A LITTLE SAD ABOUT PEOPLE GOING BACK!--YOU ALWAYS FEEL BAD ABOUT BACKSLIDERS. You wonder why, how could they do it! You wonder why they don't love you, don't believe in you, don't have faith in you any more. I thought, "How could she even leave me like this?--And even persuade the children to?" (Maria: Well, in a way she never was with you, she wasn't exactly a backslider. She just never was too wholehearted for you, was she?) She was always trying to fashion me in her mold of what she thought I ought to be. She wanted me to be a great preacher, a great evangelist in the church system, of course. She wasn't particularly fond of the idea of becoming a radical revolutionary as I did & we did!
12. EVE WAS SORT OF LIKE MY MOTHER IN A WAY, IN THAT SHE WAS VERY ORTHODOX & AUTHENTIC & CONSERVATIVE & EVANGELICAL & FUNDAMENTAL & THAT SORT OF THING. (Maria: It was like she was never really submitted to you.) No, we drew further & further apart all the time. The funny part about it was that she's the one that first got me interested in Fred Jordan by hearing him on the radio when we were in Arizona, & then attending some of his meetings when he came to Arizona, & she wanted me to sort of get interested in him. The main reason was because she felt it would be an avenue to get to the mission field, which is where we really wanted to go, & since we were more or less out of our own denomination, that this would give us some group to work with.
13. SEE, SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO WORK IN SOME GROUP OR SOME DENOMINATION, SOME CHURCH! She used to argue, "Well, you know you just can't survive outside the churches, there is no way! There's nothing else BUT the churches!'" She'd argue like that & say those things. "It's impossible! There's no way!" What are you going to do? If you won't work with the churches, what are you going to do?" So she never really was completely broken with the churches. She was like a lot of Fred's people, you know, church people who came & liked his doctrine about witnessing & missionary work & more active soul winning & litnessing & all that, but didn't wanna leave their church. She liked that, she thought that was a good improvement to sort of tack on the churches, you know?
14. AND IT WAS THROUGH HER THAT WE WENT BACK TO SO MANY CHURCHES PREACHING THAT, ALTHOUGH IT NEVER SEEMED TO DO VERY MUCH GOOD. They sort of listened, they were sort of curious, amused, entertained with the kids, their singing & testimonies, & it was sort of exciting for the young people, something new, kind of a new lark, you know--they're always waiting for something new, a new preacher, new church, new evangelist, new pastor, new sermons, new doctrines, "The people seek a new thing." (Acts 17:21) So she was interested, like church people, in something new. But she didn't really want to get out of the church or the churches. It was really hard on her when I left the Alliance, but she just sort of resigned herself to it & tagged along.
15. SHE WAS REALLY CONCERNED & UPSET WHEN I QUIT THE ALLIANCE & WENT BACK TO COLLEGE & SAID I WAS THROUGH WITH THE CHURCHES! That's when she got desperate & got me into some of Fred Jordan's meetings. She figured that, well, if I wouldn't go to church at least I'd go to his meetings. He held them usually in independent halls or auditoriums.
16. I WAS SO DISGUSTED & FED UP WITH THE CHURCHES I WOULDN'T EVEN GO NEAR A CHURCH! I wouldn't even go in a church building! You couldn't have dragged me in hardly by the hair of the head, but she tried! She was afraid I was going to become a Communist & really go off the deep end, but by dragging me to Fred Jordan's meetings & Billy Branham's meetings in his big tent & all that, well, I could still be saved, & that was quite an effort! She dragged me to that guy that had the "Voice of Healing" magazine, I forgot his name, some of those famous outstanding men & evangelists & men of faith & healers, you know, who had sort of independent places or tents or stuff like that. She wanted to keep me at least in touch with Christians & Christianity. At least they were church people even if they were in a big tent, at least it was like church, you know, church meetings, preachers, podiums, platforms, sermons, hymns, etc. So she tried, & maybe it was good for me, maybe it did me some good.
17. AND OF COURSE THEN WHEN WE WENT TO THE SOUL CLINIC SHE FIGURED THAT SHE HAD FINALLY FOUND OUR NEST, WE HAD A GOOD DENOMINATION we'd stick with & maybe we could go to the field, etc. That's when we went to the Los Angeles Soul Clinic School & the Soul Clinic in Texas. Then I got fed up & said this wasn't for me, because I just didn't agree with Fred entirely on some things. I thought we could even still work with the churches, & I think she tried to persuade me on that.
18. BUT IN ORDER TO DO SO, IN ORDER TO LEAVE FRED I HAD TO GO BACK TO LOS ANGELES, I had to go back to teaching school. And she didn't want me to leave TSC. She thought if we'd stay there they'd put me on the faculty & I'd be a teacher & we could still stay at the Soul Clinic. She didn't want me to leave Fred. And she was so mad about it that she picked up & packed up & took the two younger children & went home to her folks & let me go with the car & trailer, the old taxi cab & the old 18-foot black trailer, & I headed back to California, which I almost didn't make because the drive shaft went out & we were stuck in a garage for a week with no money to pay the bill!
19. (MARIA: DID YOU HAVE THE TWO OLDER CHILDREN?) Yes, I had the two older children by myself. She took the little ones, because Faithy was just about, oh goodness, she was only about a year or two old & Hosea was only about three or four, see? And they still needed their mother. But Aaron was about five or six & Deborah was about seven or eight. And she was a big help, she also helped cook & wash dishes, you know? She tried to be a good wife & mother, & oh, it was kind of pitiful! She tried to take care of me & Aaron, who was only about five or six. I guess she was even almost eight, about as old as Davida.
20. AND SO WE GOT STUCK IN THE REPAIR SHOP! I had just overhauled the car while I was at TSC, & several things went wrong! So I got stuck out by this garage out in the middle of West Texas somewhere, & I had to wire Eve to try to borrow some money from her folks to pay the $100 bill! Her folks wouldn't send it, although they were rich!--Her dad was so mad at us for being married! But she got it from her brother. So her brother Carl sent it & we could pay the bill, GBH!
21. THEN WE DROVE ON TO CALIFORNIA & WENT TO MY MOTHER'S, & then I think that's when she got me the job with Dr. Michelson. But Eve & I were still corresponding. She said, "When you've got a job & a house to live in, then I'll come & bring the other kids." Of course I was needing a wife, I was very sexy & I needed a woman, for one thing, & I wanted the kids. So sure enough, Dr. Michelson gave me a house to live in, a nice big house with three bedrooms, an old-fashioned house right near his office! He owned about a whole block there in Boyle Heights, Los Angeles, a bunch of old houses, etc. Some were his offices & his broadcast studio & mail rooms & all kinds of stuff, a whole Gospel plant! He put me to work in the office sorting & reading mail, filing & all those things that I'd done for Fred before.
22. SO THEN EVE CAME BACK & THAT'S ABOUT THE WAY IT WAS. I got her out of the System, but I could never get the System out of her! Like the old joke about the girl--you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't get the country out of the girl! And that's about the way it was. And of course, she instilled a lot of that in the kids, especially Deborah.
23. SHE & DEBORAH WERE JUST LIKE TWO PEAS IN A POD & AS CLOSE AS SISTERS!--In fact, more like sisters than mother & daughter, & they always stuck up for each other. Sometimes they'd persuade some of the other kids to stick with them too. Sometimes Ho would stick with Deborah on things, & Mother, because he was pretty young of course. Poor Faithy, she didn't know what to do, she was so young, but she loved me & stuck with me as much as she could. Aaron never stuck with anybody but the Lord! I mean he had a mind of his own & ideas of his own & he was like the thumb of the hand, as the Lord said He'd made him different.
24. BUT ALL THOSE YEARS EVE GOT FURTHER & FURTHER AWAY BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO BE IN THE SYSTEM & more & more system, while I wanted to be more & more radical! I think our doctrines of plural marriage, etc., began to make the break, you know, especially when I took on you, my first one! XXX!--And of course you know how she behaved from then on. She was gone most of the time & didn't even want to live with me any more. And I think then, from what I heard, that she & Stephen David really parted company with us over the doctrine of FFing, wasn't it? I think it was FFing they didn't agree with us on. Of course that was really radical & very anti-church & she knew that would really queer us with the the churches! We might be able to hide the polygamy, but she figured we'd never be able to hide that! From what I've heard, that's what I recall vaguely! You know when I got that Message on the schism or "The Division," that prophecy at Laurentide, that spelled it out to a "T," just exactly what was happening & what did happen later!
25. EVE WENT HER WAY, & SHE TOOK SOME OF THEM WITH HER! She almost got Ho, but I think he saw the light when he saw how she & Mary Ulm were acting up, & he saw Mary was trying to steal Eve away, & so he pulled Mother out of Mary's truck forcibly & yelled at Mary & told her to get out of the camp!--And Mary never forgave him or me for that!--Though I had nothing to do with it! I do think I told him to try to persuade his Mother to stay, as I thought it was a bad example, her leaving me. Well, I don't think it did any good, I think they finally went off together anyhow.
26. SO THAT DREAM WAS CERTAINLY TYPICAL OR SYMBOLIC OF THE WAY EVE WAS! I tried to get her out of the System, but I could never get the System out of her or Deborah! Deborah tried to be radical, she tried to be revolutionary, but she was always quite Systematic, remember? She was always still going for doctors & hospitals & medicines, & very good at organisation & especially money, along with Jethro, & all that, & she wanted to do something for the Lord. She really wanted to do something & feel like she was serving the Lord, so she rode along on the bandwagon, you know, while it was rolling. But I think when she thought it wasn't going to make it because of our real radicalism & wild doctrines & FFing & stuff, I think that's when she & Jeth began to feel they'd better, you know, try to do something on their own.
27. I THINK WHEN THEY WERE DOWN IN SOUTH AMERICA THEY WERE ALREADY TRYING TO SPLIT & CAUSE DIVISION EVEN THEN. Oh, Jeth was always trying to cause division! From the very beginning he didn't agree with me & was always pulling the other way & pulling backwards, doubting, sceptical & disagreeing & talking about me & our doctrines behind our back! He didn't like the Letters & wouldn't even read them to the people sometimes!
28. AND POOR DEBORAH WAS ALWAYS APPARENTLY EASILY INFLUENCED. But I don't see how she could have been, because she was so stubborn & had such a strong will! But certain people could absolutely wrap her around their finger, like her Mother, Jethro & Isaiah!--Most often the wrong ones! (Maria: Almost any man she was with!) They just almost had her hypnotised! She was crazy about Paul Michael for awhile (one good one!), then he shifted over to Faithy, & Deborah was furious!
29. WELL, OF COURSE, THEN DEBORAH & RACHEL GOT TOGETHER ALONG WITH JETHRO, & THEY ALL SEEMED TO CLICK QUITE WELL TOGETHER, THEY WERE ALL PRETTY SYSTEM! They all loved that hard rock & they had the hard rock Poorboy Clubs & stuff. The schism, the division was there long before! The Lord recognised it beforehand at Laurentide in that prophecy, & it just kept growing all the time.
30. AND FINALLY I JUST DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THEM BUT TO GET RID OF THEM & put them as far away as I could. At least we didn't have anything much in South America, so we thought they could do something there. It didn't seem like they could hurt it any, there wasn't hardly anything left there.--And they did manage to kind of organise things there.
31. BUT JETHRO WAS ALWAYS SO COVETOUS & AVARICIOUS & GREEDY THAT HE WAS TOO HARD ON THE PEOPLE FOR MONEY! Apparently he & Deb lived pretty high & Deborah liked it, & they didn't have much pity for the poor & they really coveted stuff for themselves. I was shocked & dumbfounded at the way they lived, the way they spent money! And as you know, that's what finally brought the beginning of their end! I got fed up with them & fired them! Well, I didn't actually fire them, I told them I'd give them another job, offered them a job if they'd just get out of South America! And Rachel was supposed to go down there & arrange it, & here she was a traitor all the time herself & sympathising with them!
32. SO FIRST MOTHER WENT HER WAY, THEN DEBORAH WENT HER WAY, & JETH OF COURSE HAD NEVER BEEN OUR WAY! And they all, those who belonged to the House of Saul, went back, & only you & me & a few thousand went on! I don't think they've got that many people. I think Mother maybe has a dozen or so that seem to work together, & it looks like Jeth & Deborah are working with our enemies! So what a mess! (Maria: Yes, the evangelical unfilled-with-the-Spirit enemies, who don't even believe in gifts of the Spirit!) I don't even know if Deb EVER got the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that Jethro ever did.
33. (MARIA: CAN YOU BELIEVE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN HEALING, THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT!) See, it seemed almost like Deb had the seeds of that from the time she was born! She was obstreperous, stubborn, wilful, rebellious, disobedient & didn't believe, & she was always scared to death when she got sick & wanted medicine & a doctor! I don't know where she ever got that, because we never had such things! Maybe she heard it from other kids in school or something.
34. (MARIA: GUESS WHAT SHE TRIED TO DO IN HER BOOK, MOTHER EVE SAID: DISCREDIT GRANDMOTHER'S HEALING TESTIMONY! Can you imagine!) My Lord! She is really gone back! Can you imagine that? (Maria: Of course, Mother is all upset about that!) Well, I'll tell you, I told you that she is so much like my sister! My sister was like that for a long time. She talked like that about my Mother, her own mother! She tried to discredit Grandmother's healing & her message & her method & her ministry & EVERYTHING! I mean she just fought my Mother like the Devil!--Just like Deborah is fighting me now, for YEARS!--And it was shortly before our Mother's death that they ever came to any reconciliation at all, which wasn't much! And you remember after we moved in & Mother died, they came & stole all the furniture out of the house one day while we were gone! Well, they're all the same ilk, they all seem to belong to the same clan, the Benjamites, as the Lord showed us in that vision. Well, they're not of the House of David, they're the House of Saul! (2Sam.3:1)
35. SO THAT WAS A FUNNY LITTLE DREAM! It was kind of sad, I was calling but they wouldn't come! Thank God Faithy did & Ho has! I think it has been in some ways sort of a struggle for Ho. (Maria: He's really made it with flying colours!) But praise the Lord, he made it! In the early days he was torn between the two. Eve tried to capture all of the kids, of course. She had Deborah, she knew she couldn't get Aaron, he was his own man, just the Lord's man. But she did try to get ahold of Ho. She tried on Faithy, but I don't think she had much hope for Faithy because she knew how much Faith loved me & how loyal she was to me, so she never got very far with her. But she ripped off Deborah, & now look where Deborah is--back amongst our enemies! (Maria: Her book is published by _________!) That's ultra-fundamentalist evangelicals!
36. BUT ANYHOW, THEY'RE OF THE HOUSE OF SAUL, & THAT'S THE WAY THEY WENT & there was never any true reconciliation. (Maria: They were always trying to kill David!) Yes, & even after David was gone they still split in two, Judah & Israel, & were split from then on. Very few times did they ever ally or work together or fight together. They had separate kings at the time of the kings, the Northern 10 Tribes of Israel & the Southern 2 Tribes of David--Judah & Benjamin.
37. AFTER DAVID MORE OR LESS CONQUERED SAUL, BENJAMIN JOINED DAVID, but the Northern 10 Tribes, they stayed split for centuries, until finally the Lord cast the whole bunch out when He saw that all of them were rebellious! So He cast Israel out first, & He cast Judah out last, & then after the 70 years exile there was a certain amount of restoration. Each went back to their own places for awhile, but then eventually they were cast out completely & scattered all over the World & almost totally destroyed. [DELETED]
38. BECAUSE THEY WERE SO [EDITED: "STUBBORN"] FROM THE BEGINNING, IT'S A WONDER THE LORD EVER EVEN GOT ANY PROPHETS OUT OF THEM, MUCH LESS JESUS THE MESSIAH! I think the Lord wanted to show His miracle-working power to get all those Prophets & a few good heroes & kings & the Messiah out of the people who were [EDITED: "so"] disobedient & [DELETED] murderers of all the Prophets & finally Jesus! [EDITED: "1Thes.2:14-16"] [DELETED]
39. SO OUR SPLIT CAN GROW & IT HAS, BUT THANK GOD THERE IS NOT MUCH TIME LEFT FOR IT TO GROW MUCH FURTHER! So praise the Lord anyhow, I didn't intend to get into all that, but that is the history of the Division! Well, you know, I told you before that I hadn't been married to Eve for many days when I was pleading to the Lord to deliver me from that woman! I then began to realise she wasn't what I wanted & she wasn't what she was supposed to be, putting on this big self-righteous front! And she & my Mother were at sword's points for five years until finally they began to reconcile. They began to reconcile when I began to sort of pull away from my Mother. Then they two began to get together.
40. BUT I WENT ON! PTL! Thank the Lord, He gave me the guts & determination, the stamina & fortitude to go on, even if I had to go by myself, which I did for some time! When I was on the road for TV, Eve & I were practically separated, really. I mean she wouldn't come with me, didn't come with me except for a few rare occasions. She stayed home with the kids & the school & doing her own thing, even running around with other men! I'm convinced now there was more between her association with Harold & Isaac! I'm sure they were sleeping together when I caught them in that house in California. But anyway, I don't blame her. She didn't like me anymore, she didn't love me. I don't know if she ever loved me. It just seemed like she was trying to use me as a tool to promote her own ministry.--First as a pianist, then to give her opportunities to speak, & finally then in the children. She had the children. I think she gave up on me & decided to use the children. She did a pretty good job on them. But that was it!
41. SO THEY'RE ALL GONE NOW, EXCEPT THE CHILDREN WHO FOLLOWED ME. The others are gone, the House of Saul. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance! They were nothing but a problem & trouble! The Lord warned me. When I prayed that the Lord would at least spare them, the Lord prophesied then that, because I had prayed for them & begged Him to spare them at least, He said, "They will be thorns in your side & pricks in your eyes," etc.! (See Nos.117A:14; 716.) And they have been! They have been nothing but troublemakers ever since, & her cohorts & Deborah & hers & their various cronies like Rachel & Jethro & all the rest of them! They're all gone now, thank the Lord! But we are gone too!--We have gone on for the Lord, & look where we are today! TTL! TYJ! HAL! We're better off without'm!
42. IN THOSE DAYS OF THE EARLY DIVISION THERE WERE ONLY A FEW HUNDRED OF US, BUT NOW WE ARE TENS OF THOUSANDS! TTL! We're doing greater works than ever & accomplishing more than ever! We're winning more souls, distributing more lit & preaching more Gospel in more places, more countries, more languages, broadcasting more, publishing more, doing more than we ever did before! So I'd say it looks to me like the Lord's blessing was on us, & almost nothing but cursing on them, except I prayed the Lord to spare them, so He has spared them.
43. WELL, IF MOTHER DOESN'T LIKE THE BOOK THAT DEB IS WRITING AGAINST US, IT IS PARTLY HER OWN FAULT! That's the way she raised her! She raised her in opposition to me, constantly, she persuaded Deb to take her side against me almost all of the time!--Whose side are you on?
Copyright (c) 1998 by The Family
Copyright (c) 1998 by The Family